Talk Tuesday: Melissa Fancy
May 18, 2021
Featuring Melissa Hagan, owner of Melissa Fancy.
REBECCA: Hey guys! This week we are here with the fabulous Melissa Hagen. Owner and founder of Melissa Fancy.
MELISSA: Hey guys. How are you all?
REBECCA: Good. How are you?
MELISSA: I'm good.
REBECCA: Good. So, I know there are several areas of event ethics that are frequently discussed, but none really talks about how we as a community can call out companies for really not handling their business or business relationships in an ethical manner. So they're dealing with things unethically and no one really talks about it. So, I wanted to just, I know you and I have chatted offline, but I thought that this could be an interesting way to kind of spearhead - how do we as a team, as a community of partners deal with this? How do we deal with professionals who are being dishonest and corrupt and immoral? And deal with that piece?
MELISSA: Well, okay, so it think this is such a good starting point for the conversation and OI don't think that we are in the moment or today going to find a solution and I don't know that there is a solution for that at this moment, but I would say it's difficult because when you look at the definition of integrity or morality or any of those things everybody operates in different spaces on the scale as far as what is appropriate and what's not appropriate for them. And so it's really difficult because I want to be mindful that we're not projecting our or my or your personal definitions of what is right or not right onto other people. But what I would say is I think, that there are people who across the board know when somethings wrong. When it is you know hurtful to somebody. When it is dishonest to the client. When it is affecting somebody's mental health. When it is you know making people super uncomfortable consistently. When it is people who have been told their behavior isn't appropriate, yet they continue to do it and don't care. They're not open to the feedback or don't take and hold accountability for their actions themselves. I think all of those things are sort of major red flags to who you want to work with and who you want to surround yourself with and honestly, for years I think all of us have sort of had a whisper network of like oh that person did so and so and so and so, we shouldn't work with them or don't work with them or don't be alone with them or you know all of those things. I think as women, we have an extra layer on this of just personal safety. I mean, we are out and about in the world. We are people who, I don't have a bodyguard you know with me? Like, I'm late night at hotels until 2 o'clock in the morning. Oftentimes by myself cleaning up, you know? And the only people left, you know, are the band people that are packing up, or the rental people. There's an element of safety that has to get put into that that we always have to think about, you know? And as I hire girls to work for me, you know? I want to have professional, cute girls who dress great and wear heels and the whole thing, but I don't want them to ever be put or feel like they're unsafe because they can't be with the photographer alone at a wedding, you know? So there's a whole gambit of things that I think that even though everybody sort of might be different on the scale, I think that we can agree across-the-board are bad practice. They are like I said unsafe or just icky, you know? And you know that icky feeling? And I think everybody kind of knows that, so that is something that for me as I have grown my business and I am starting to hire you no more and a variety of people and work in different areas because you don't always know you know who the best vendors are in New York or who they are in you know san Diego or wherever I may be working. So you do have to ask around a lot. I think that there is more of an uneasiness about just working with people we don't have a solid relationship with and don't have that. The other part of it is, I think it's really difficult because for so long people are so nervous to operate or make decisions based off of someone else's experience with the person and I think that there has to be some sort of conversation about when is enough enough? How many conversations have to happen? How many situations have to happen? How many situations have to exist? Does it have to happen to you before you write it off? Or do you trust your sisters in the industry. There was so much with just like even as simple as the #metoo movement that allowed people to come out about the situations that were uncomfortable or inappropriate that have happened to them, yet we still see those people getting published. We still see those people getting attention in the industry. I still have clients about them and I still have to say no. I won't work with that person. And you know, I don't typically have to push back too much to my clients about who I will work with, but I have become very protective of who I will work with because there is so much more at stake, you know? I don't want my brides to feel uncomfortable. I don't want my girls to feel uncomfortable. I don't want the staff of a hotel to feel uncomfortable. The beautiful thing about our industry is you can decide to be successful in this industry and then be successful in this industry. you don't have to have a degree to be here. You don't have to be published to be great here. You don't have to be Irish to be here. You have to be a hard worker. You have to put out a good product. You have to show up. You have to be nice. You have to be professional. All the things. But the barrier to entry within our industry is so low that there aren't any qualifiers and so it's a beautiful thing, but it can also be a tricky thing when it comes to people behaving however they want because there's no standard of behavior. Even at the highest level, we see and we hear and we have heard people misbehaving, right? And so then you're like okay well now actually I only have a handful of bands that I can work with because I don't feel comfortable working with certain companies and that is really frustrating and it sucks because the bands are great. The band owners might be the issue, or their crew or you know, on on. An so I think that the conversation should be not in a whisper network; I think it should just be like, hey what do you think about this person? I had this experience. Okay great, I trust you. Done. End of story. I don't think it has to be something that is you know, so under the table and so quiet, you know?
LAUREN: Well and you said too about you know, maybe you don't really have to take someone's advice or opinion or you know people might want to find out for themselves, but in some of these situations you know, these are your friends and colleagues. You really don't want to find out for yourself. I so appreciate that because even just us, we've actually made some really great relationships with some new people throughout the pandemic because we didn't listen to hearsay, but it was a totally different kind of thing. It was more like Mean Girls situation. And when you know we met some of these people they were great, but when we're talking about some of these companies that are inappropriate with women or they're sexist or they're making people feel uncomfortable, that's you know a totally different thing and we do have that responsibility to say, hey watch out, I don't work with that person and here's why.
MELISSA: Yeah, I think that we shouldn't be so afraid to be honest about that stuff.
REBECCA: No, of course. And I think that's the thing that I've found very interesting si I feel like more and more as partners we're talking about this, but when it comes to a client I know we just started, we don't have to go into details with clients, but just started saying, that's not the team that we work with, or whatever it is. And I think a lot of people don't do that or don't want to do that. But like Lauren said, we've actually had even musicians. We're not going into details with people
MELISSA: No, No, it's not about that.
REBECCA: But we'll just be like, look, we want you working, but just keep your eyes open and just know that like there's unethical or dishonest things that happen and you know, I think it's almost a disservice if we're not having these conversations.
LAUREN: I think so especially because we're so close with all of our musicians and we do see them like family and if I were in that type of situation and no one kindly, gently maybe warned me or said, just be careful, you know I would be a little bit upset if something happened.
MELISSA: Yeah, right! And I think if I knew that somebody that I was potentially going to hire was going to make a negative experience for my bride, I wouldn't hire them. So I appreciate knowing this is what it’s like working with that person. Or, this is the thing that happened to my crew that day. Or, I can't speak to how they're going to be with you, but this is what they did with us. I just can't trust it. And you know, I love to give people the benefit of the doubt. I'm also so so Scorpio. So like, I have a really strong spidey-sense about people, so if I - I try to be really careful with who I align myself with. I want them to have similar values to me. You know? As far as what I'm going to show and share with my clients very especially. You know work ethic is huge for me, so if I have anybody on my team who's like, oh that's not my job like I'll literally never work with you again. So why wouldn't I keep a standard like that for behaviors? You know? And that to me is important. I don't have to often share with my clients why I don't work with certain people, but I definitely will say, nope, we don't work with them. I have a fee that's built into my contract if they demand to work with a vendor, that I get to decide what that fee is. That I tell them that either I can't vouch for them or I don't want to work with them to whatever. But I also have a kindness clause in my contract. So, if for some reason I start to feel abused by the client or the vendor or anybody on site, we're out of there and you don't get a refund and see ya later because that's not something that we do here. And honestly, when you have a conversation that educates a client on the WHY, they would much rather not put their money into something into a business that is negative or you know, does bad business or any of those things. The other part of it thought too is like I do try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I'm open for a bazillion, any creative project, any kind of day, you know that I'm happy to support anybody that needs help. I will go the distance until I start to feel like things are off and then still be like, okay wait, what am I feeling? Alright, let's feel this out a little bit more and if it's icky, we gotta go, you know? And that's something that you know, there's so many more other vendors that you can replace them with. You're not going to have a shortage of musicians or photographers. Like, there are so many amazing, wonderful, talented people out there that if you take the time to get to know them, they are of the quality of people that you want to work with and put out the product that you're looking for. It takes more work like you can't be an armchair wedding planner, but you know, you're going to have the team that has integrity. You're going to have the people working with you who are going to protect the client's experience at all costs, you know? And you're not going to expose anybody to anything negative or hurtful. And it's unfortunate that that even has to be a part of the conversation, but there's no HR department for the wedding industry, right? And so nobody does that. But I think that there also has to be a conversation which I think is something that maybe the younger generation is less accepting of, you know? I don't want to get published so badly that I'll work with a shitty photographer or somebody who is a bad person just because they get published all the time. I don't care. Take your magazine and go. Like, I don't care. I don't want to work with that person. I don't care about the SEO that comes from that person's stuff being published. I don't want to touch that person or have them near me or my work with a ten-foot pole, you know? And I don't care if it's going to be on the cover of some magazine. I don't care. I don't want anything to do with it. And so I also, like I don't take commission from our vendors and that's a huge thing for me because there are plenty of vendors that over-charge and are very expensive so that they can give high commissions to planners and they continue to get work because they are giving commissions to planners and I don't agree with that. Because then you're not hiring them based on an integrity to if they can do good job, you're hiring them based on commission, getting published. Also, there's stuff that doesn't actually matter. Like just charge your fee and then hire good teams that are good people. And don't feel obligated then to work with people who are a little bit sketchy or who are accosting people. Like, you don't have to deal with any of that stuff because you're just being like, these are wonderful vendors that I can trust. End of story. You know, I do not buy into the belief that there is only one company out there that can put out amazing theatre-level production-level entertainment. I don't. There are so many others and like if you just give somebody a chance. Like you girls are amazing. I know you can produce that stuff. There's no reason for me to have a conversation with some ridiculous company out of Vegas who might just be like completely out of their mind and like accosting all the girls on set, you know? Like, I grew up in dance. I know what that's like. I know what's happening and I don't want that at my weddings. I don't have to. I don't have to. And neither of us do. So, I think there has to be a little bit of the change, you know, in all the little areas for that to be something that's not accepted, you know?
REBECCA: And I do wonder. I know not everyone feels like it matters. And I know that there's plenty of planners out there that have their eyes kind of wide-open of what's happening and either write it off or dismiss it or feel like maybe it's not relevant. I think that's also a part of the conversation, maybe not for today, but maybe a part two of this, is how do we as an industry start getting other industry professionals to care? And to care about who you hire?
MELISSA: It think it's a lead by example sort of thing and I think it's a long game sort of thing. I think it is, you know when somebody calls me and says, hey what's your opinion on this person? It's me being honest. It's not being afraid that somebody's going to say what I said. I don't care. I'll say it to your face. I'm not working with you because of XYZ. And if you still don't get it and don't change your behavior after the conversations that have already happened to get to the point where I don't work with you, then I can't help you and that's your problem, you know? And maybe you should find a different job. Like, I don't know., But it's a long game thing and it is just going through the research and saying, no no no, I don't work with them, but here's who I do work with who can accomplish this in a better way. They're a women-owned company. They have integrity. They will go to the end of the earth for you. It's changing the path and just changing that conversation anytime that conversation happens, you know? Like, this isn't about talking bad or gossip, it's about having a standard that we operate by for people's behavior in the event industry in general as far as making sure the girls are safe. I mean, listen, you can close your eyes to it all day long. You can put your head in the sand because that band or that person or whoever, they're so talented. Okay, well what if something happens to you? What if something happens to your client? What if something happens to one of your staff? And you knew that they were that way? And you knew that there was a possibility that something like that could happen? The onus is on you. How would you feel? Right? So, that's not something I can go to sleep at night feeling ok with. And that's why this conversation is happening because we want to protect the integrity of our events and this is part of it, you know? And we live in a world where we aren't stuck working with just one type of person anymore, you know? We don't have to.
LAUREN: Well and I think you said it, Melissa. The more people are encouraging people to work with other teams and the more they're speaking out about that, we can raise that level of ethics. Because it's been allowed to think for so long, for too long, that it's that mindset like Rebecca said as well, where oh it's you know, it's not happening to me and they're really great at what they do, so we're just going to hire them anyway. But by really talking about it together and continuing to say no, we will not work with these people, that will raise that level. Slowly, but surely.
MELISSA: Right, and I think like our clients see it, you know? Our clients know. They know that, like I mean we were just talking about this the other day with one of my clients. Like look, I understand what you're going for. We can create that, but we are going to guide you towards something that is not only going to make your experience amazing, but it's going to put all the energy and all the money in a basket that is good. Not something that is negative or has weird energy or like, there's a number of things that could happen if you went another way. Nope, your whole experience is going to be beautiful. The music is going to be amazing. The money is going to a company who is women-owned and wonderful and is filled with integrity. That's a different conversation than saying, okay well you can hire this other band but you know, I don't really like the owner. And they make me feel really uncomfortable so like I have to have you pay me an extra fee. Like, what? You know, we don't have to do that. We can say, we're going to do this. And enough times of people using the right people and those people getting the right attention and seeing that you can put out the product and there is another option. I think that's going to change the conversation, you know? There's a whole generation of wedding planners that I think like me. That think differently, you know? And I think everything's changing. I'm seeing less and less people do commission. I'm seeing more people do percentage fees, you know? And be more transparent with their pricing. That's a huge part of what is just a shift in our industry. We don't pay to play anymore. I mean that's why you've seen the online stuff just tank because the pay for play doesn't work anymore. There's nobody holding the keys to the kingdom anymore because we all shook it up and I think this is the next step to say, okay, now that we've changed this, now that we've shown what is possible, that other people can also do amazing work and it doesn't have to be something that's just done by you know, just the amazing, wonderful people that have been doing it this whole time. You know, we can also say okay, not only do they do amazing work, but their ethics and their integrity standards are so good that those are the people I want to work with, you know?
LAUREN: That's so important because it is such a large pool and there are so many people that I'm sure we don't know about that are even just in our home industry that do have much better levels of integrity that will do the job, they will do it well. They won't make anyone feel icky and it'll be amazing and it's just seeking out those people. And I think like you said, Melissa, providing options and saying, ok I see that you like them but we don't work with them, but here is who I do work with. Here are people who are amazing. Maybe you haven't heard of them, but you already have that list just to say here, look at this instead and steer them in that direction.
MELISSA: And listen, it's more work, you know? I mean, for example like what we're showing my client that I want them to have, right? There's no marketed website. There's no collateral for that. We're literally making something for them that's custom. There's nothing that exists and has video of it, so it is more work t get them o understand and to put the money down and to do the thing, but at the end of the day, I would rather do all that work than have something negative happen or have money go to a company that doesn't have the integrity levels that I need my clients to have and that I operate out of. And I know for sure I'll be happier and the client will be happier anyways. So, for me, I mean I know that not everybody has the luxury of doing more work, right? But networking itself has changed, right? Like you can get to WEPA or NACE and it's not exactly the way that we find the vendors that we want to work with. If that's the case I would have never met you guys. That's not how it works anymore. So, I think it's more than just going and being part of a networking group. You know it's really the same people you see all of the time there, you know? There's so much more than that and I think also expanding your horizons and not just looking within your simple, local vicinity. You know, there's people in San Francisco who charge the same amount as what we're going to offer from you guys, so there's no reason to not look at you guys, you know? Like, let's just open up the map and see who else is out there to work with that's also really fabulous because it doesn't have to be so difficult. I travel for work. I don't make it difficult for my clients just because I'm traveling for my destination wedding, so why wouldn't you hire a photographer that you know maybe lives in LA who's amazing, instead of this local one who's subpar and kind of weird, you know? Like you don't have to do that. I mean, that's just an example, you know? I mean there's just, it's like in 2021 people can get on a plane and just be there today. I had a wedding where the photographer just like didn't show up and I literally could have called Dennis Quan and been like, hey I need you to be here in three hours and he could’ve gotten on a plane and been there to shoot - you know what I mean? At the end of the day, we're not stuck by just where we live anymore. We can pull from outside that. So like, educate yourself on what are options outside of what you're normally used to working with and see what else you can offer them because there is so much more out there. Even to the point where like, right now I'm bringing in Emily Clark Events to help me design some stuff because I need something that is a different perspective for my clients. I'm a great designer, but I want that and so I'm happy to bring in other people's eyeballs that are from different parts of the country just to service my client in a way that makes sense. And you can do that with all your vendors. You're not stuck just with whatever one liver by you.
REBECCA: Yeah, and I think that this is something that more and more people are going to not just in the industry, but our clients are going to actually be holding us to this stand or, do you know your teams? Do you know who you're working with? And you know, keeping the conversation going cause I think like you said at the very beginning, we can't keep this as a whisper network anymore. We all need to decide as an industry that we're going to have a higher standard; to care about integrity and care about character and care about honesty and transparency. That’s a big one.
MELISSA: Well, I think that there's a whole problem, right? So we've seen this happen in plenty of other industries. Hollywood's a huge example of this, right? Because all of that has been happening for years and people just did it anyways. They were accosted. They were abused. They were all the things; taken advantage of. Whatever. And it was accepted, you know? But we have the luxury of not accepting that. Of not sharing, not being in the same room as them. We have the luxury to not work with them. So, every time we entertain, every time we look away, every time we say, well you know, they’re really not like the safest or the most field with integrity company, but they're really talented, so we'll hire them anyways. That is enabling their behavior, right? And any time that you take a negative person, an abusive person, a narcissistic person, any time you do any of those things and you look away from their bad behavior, any time you accept it, you're enabling them. And they continue down the path and it gets worse and worse and worse and worse until you see what happened in Hollywood. Because that was years coming. That was so many years coming. And so now, we are at this point where we've had enough and we're not hiring them because we don't this hierarchy and master industry going situation going on that some of the others do. We are responsible for ourselves, you know?? And I think that if we just stop tolerating it. It's not about, oh that person's bad because of XYZ, and here's all the reasons, here's the book of all the bad people. No, this is about not tolerating bad behavior. That's the end of it. Because every time we do or every time we see that person or those people or that situation get featured or get attention or their at the party that they shouldn't be, that is enabling their behavior and it is not just putting them on the pedestal they think they are, it's allowing them to continue to get away with it. It's allowing them to continue to not check the behavior. It's not to say that I want any of these people to stop being in the industry, not at all, we just need to show them, listen you've been told, you don't change your behavior you can't work with me anymore. You change your behavior, you change your ethics, let's talk. You want to do that? See ya later. Because we're not handcuffed to those people, you know? And that's the beauty of the industry too.
REBECCA: No, that's awesome. Well thank you so much for joining us and talking to us about this and I really do hope, especially for people out there listening, I do hope that we can keep this conversation going and as an industry commit to being better. And we'd love to, I mean I know this is not something we usually do in our little Tuesday Talks - Talk Tuesday, I always flip it, but I do think that if people are out there listening that want to keep the conversation going, it would be really nice to have this continue and be another topic that we talk about because I think it's going to be more and more relevant as we open up.
MELISSA: Oh my gosh, yeah. Well, and I really hope that it inspires people who maybe we haven't met yet or people that are thinking about becoming in our industry, who are wonderful and talented and have really good standards, I really hope it inspires them to know that there is a place for them here. You know? This is an industry that can be really terrifying and really difficult, but any time you have something amazing to offer and you're a wonderful, good human, there is space for you. Especially if we are looking for that and we're turning our attention to that type of person. I want to see more of those people here, you know? I want to see more - I want to see more modern, young, amazing talent for sure, but I also want to say like, hey are you thinking of starting an entertainment company, cool? Why don't you come and have a talk with Rebecca and Lauren and me and see like, what are we looking for? How can we make this work? How can we support you? But I think that's what the whole industry should be. It should be about supporting the positivity and then you know, raising the success of everybody, but it will come if we stop tolerating bad behavior.
REBECCA: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Thank you so much for joining us and thank you for tuning in!
MELISSA: Yeah! Bye!